Wednesday evening tidbits: Flores sidelined

* Randy Flores has some shoulder discomfort and is not available. It’s unclear what the issue is exactly, or how severe. Should know more in a day or two.

* Rick Ankiel had surgery to repair his sports hernia today. I’m told it went well.

* As you’ve likely heard, the Cardinals and the Memphis Redbirds announced that they are in negotiations for the big club to buy the AAA team.



It’s a shame that the Cardinals suffer from as many injuries as they do. Since the 2004 season, has any team had more combined total injuries than the Cardinals?

I’m hoping Rick Ankiel has a speedy recovery and is ready by next season.

Glad to hear that the Cardinals are going to be buying the team that we get our Triple A prospects from, that’s always good.

Anyways, do the Cardinals have any plans to seek a new hitting coach in the offseason, it seems like our offense has been struggling a lot as of recently, only getting as high as 3 runs a game over the last week, except that game in Pittsburgh we lost 7-6. I’m hoping that the Cardinals can get the offense back on track for next year and be more consistent. Not only that, some inning eating starters would be nice, as well as an improved bullpen.

Somebody should tell LaRussa and the players that the season ENDS ON OCTOBER 1 not on September 1. It looks like they are just going through the motions and not very effectively at that. They’ve now lost five in a row to the powerhouse Pirates (25 games below 0.500 AFTER taking 3 in a row from the Cards and Reds (11 games below 0.500 AFTER taking 2 in a row from the Cards). I know that LaRussa was aiming to win 90 games this year it’s now questionable whether they’ll manage to win 80 games this year let alone 90. After all they’ve got to play they have to play Chicago (at Wrigley) and Arizona where they’ll have to face Webb and Haren. This happened about this time in 2007 when they were still very much in the race for a playoff spot. Can anybody tell me why they go right in the tank in September?

As I am told a lot of teams do this in September. The Brewers did it last year, and are doing it again this year, and the Mets did it last year, and are doing it again this year. It’s called the September Swoon. Why it happens, I don’t know, but it does happen.

Good teams don’t have “September Swoons”. Call it what you want, it’s unacceptable. And just to clarify, I think every baseball fan knows about that term. But that doesn’t do anything to answer lmucardfan’s question. I would respond like this…It is my opinion that the Cardinals recent failures in September (even in 06 when we miraculously made the playoffs and won the Series), are due in large part to the types of players we sign and play each year. I think this tendency to sign reclamation projects is a big factor, and the tendency to play the percentages every time. When you get toward the end of the regular season the percentages go out the window, because players are tired or banged up. With the exception of the superstars like Mr. Pujols, most MLB players are not exactly themselves at the end of the year. Then you have to consider that many of our reclamation projects are likely to struggle even more, if for no other reason than they likely have never played that late into a season. Anyways, that’s my theory.

By the way, I want to apologize M for the last subject’s posts. I also apologize to pujols_05. I didn’t realize it was Crazy Kid. I said I would ignore him, and I will try harder now that I know it’s him. Again, I’m sorry.

The statement “Good teams don’t have September Swoons,” does not deserve a response, because it is too ridiculous of a statement.

Okay, with that comment right there, I feel like an instigator, someone who’s trying to cause conflict, and for that I apologize. But from your post, it just sounds like to me that you’re saying no good team has ever suffered from a September Swoon, as they call it. I feel as if that’s inaccurate. The way I see it, is that somewhere along the line, all teams will suffer from a September Swoon, no matter how good or bad they are. And just because a team suffers from one, does not by any means make them a bad team, that’s what I want to get across here. There is no excuse for how the Cardinals have played this September, we were in contention to begin the month, and we’ve fallen out of contention as this month has gone on. I call that a September Swoon, I do not however find it acceptable, it disgusts me an upsets me. I never like seeing the Cardinals perform badly, but I know, just as everyone should come to know and realize that no matter how good a franchise is, they’re going to have bad seasons. I do not blame management, I do not blame any certain person, I blame the team itself. The Cardinals this year have had pitchers give up good ERA’s and win/loss total’s, but I believe they’re not giving enough innings. Because the starting pitching is not giving enough innings, the bullpen gets used quite often, which causes them to perform badly. I’m not making excuses, I’m stating what I believe is happening. And our hitting has been very inconsistent this year. It’s John Mozeliak’s first year, and I see so many people quick to hate him, but guys, you have to remember, it’s his first year, give him a chance to prove himself this off season, you know, when the free agency market actually has people worth spending money on. He’s already made good moves, some of them have worked out, some of them haven’t. I think the Glaus/Rolen deal was a good deal. And I think the signing of Lohse was also a good deal. Some people may see the optioning of Isringhausen’s contract as being a bad idea, because of how he’s performed this season, but lets think back. Last season Izzy put up good numbers stats wise, no one knew he was going to perform the way he did this season, so based on last years stats and no idea how he was going to do this season, it was a good move. People feel as if he made no effort at the trade deadline to acquire anyone, but he did, he tried to acquire Fuentes, but the asking price was too high. And why not just wait until the season is over and get him for multiple years, instead of half a season? Why does everyone have this win now attitude and not care about many years from now. I’m the type of person that wants to win many world series titles over lets say 20 years, not one. If it means not winning this season, so be it. That’s just the way I feel.

Sorry that was so long.

Anyone know how long the average recovery is from a sports hernia? Also, I think I missed an update or two on Carp. Whats the latest with him?

I just told you guys to RESPECT each other, what, 24 hours ago. So why am I still seeing posts like:

“…does not deserve a response, because it is too ridiculous of a statement…” ?

— that’s not respectful. If you disagree, show/tell why you disagree. If you just want to ignore it, then ignore it. But for Pete’s sake, you KNOW that’s out of bounds here.

Crazy, you’re not the only one, but this is the most recent one so it’s sticking in my craw. I’m really, really sick of it, guys. Argue the points. That’s fine. It’s great. But the attacks are old, out of line and unnecessary.


Well guys, we just plain old forgot how to win it appears. I want to see guys in the line-up who look like they want to be in the line-up and battling. I think Barton, Shumaker and Stavinoah should be in the outfield regularly as it seems the rest have forgotten how to hit. I am not impressed with Villone’s efforts lately either. Sure its easy for me to sit here and pass on these thoughts, but I want to watch fighters on the field who are going down swinging and I don’t think we are getting that from some of our guys right now. I do like the propects for ’09 though, its not all doom and gloom!

I apologized in my post shortly after that and made my argument against it. And rick, Barton hasn’t had a lot of playing time, I want to start him at Triple A to begin next season to see what he can do, then have him be a mid season call up. Schumacker is one of my favorite players on this team, so he should get a lot of playing time. And Stavinoha isn’t putting up the best of stats.

But, with the way the offense has been doing as of recently, throw anyone out there on the field, I don’t care.

And SLForre, this is to you. Do not read my first response, if you do, do not reply, do not even acknowledge its existence, it was posted out of anger. I have a problem controlling my anger at times, and it gets the best of me. I would however like you to read my other post, because it was after I calmed down. I tried to make my argument to you in a calm manner, and I hope you understand the points I am trying to get across.

Ok. So I threw my towel in at the end of August. Maybe it was premature for a Cards fan to do, but I’m also a realist. The writing was on the wall in July when the team failed to make any significant moves. Obviously they are not concerned with winning this year, but I hope they are planning to stack the roster for next year. I’d hate to see us have a bad year when we are hosting the All-Star game. I guess hosting the mid summer classic doesn’t necessarily go hand in hand with a good year, but I’d like to see that. Can you imagine what kind of excitement would be in St.Louis? A winning team, the ASG, and a playoff run!!! I just hope we saved a bunch of money this year by being extremely frugal, and that gives us the salary room to sign a good starter and a big bat to protect Albert. I’d like to see a regular 2B that can hit, a shortstop that is a multi-dimensional player (not just a defensive player. That works at Catcher, but that’s the only place), and I’d like to see us get a real, actual lead-off hitter. Those are my Christmas wishes to the Cardinals….And I promise to be good the rest of the year🙂

Yep, I think the Cards are toast. However, the swoon could be partially blamed on the loss of 4 regulars for parts of the last month, Duncan, Ankiel, Glaus and Molina. That’s half the lineup. Take 4 starters from almost any teams lineup and see what happens. But then if the pen had performed the Cards might very well be in the hunt for the postseason.
I say play Barton every day until end of the year and see what he has to offer. If nothing else. Cards find out what they have or don’t have for next year. Could be a bargaining chip.

Those are very good points jdun. Not only is that half the lineup, but it’s the majority of our offensive production outside of Pujols and Luddy. Then you throw in the fact that Lud is struggling and the pen has been horrendous pretty much all year, and you have the recipe for a terrible end to the season.
It looks to me like management has a LOT of work to do this off season…bolster the pen (either from inside the organization or outside), find another big bat, find a lead off hitter, and find an everyday shortstop that can also hit. And I don’t know about you, but I’m sick of playing musical Second baseman. Let’s get a regular there too. PLUS we could use another starter to solidify the rotation in case of injury. Preferably a lefty.

I don’t know who to get at 2nd base, no real big names on the free agent list that I saw. A trade might be required to get this. We could solve our short stop problems by signing Rafael Furcal for 3 or 4 years. And if Rasmus is ready next year, and perform up to expectations, our 1, 2, and 3 hitters could be: Furcal, Rasmus, Pujols. I’d like to trade away one of starters in the outfield for some prospects, and then sign Vladimir Guerrero from the Free Agency list. Then our 1, 2,3, 4, 5 hitters would be: Furcal, Rasmus, Pujols, Guerrero, Glaus.

I too am fed up with the merry-go-round at 2nd base. Seems to be a new face there every 2 years.
A middle infielder with a good bat would be great. Hopefully if/when Duncan and Ankiel get healthy and show they are 100% one might be trade bait. Either that or Skip,
tho Skip is a very good defender, much better than Duncan. Maybe Duncan goes for a team looking for a first baseman?
It would not bother me one bit to see Flores and Villone cut loose. They both had poor seasons. Get Fuentes. Kennedy has been a disappointment. Miles is more versatile and has played better. Lopez has been pretty good offensively and is versatile.
Barton and Mather offer some OF depth or trade options. Lots of options. Let’s hope Mo makes some good moves, and that ownership frees up some cash.

I wouldn’t be opposed to giving Hoffpauir a shot. He’s one of our minor league prospects, and if he shows that he has what it takes to be an everyday big league second baseman, he could be our answer, because we have him under team control for awhile.

Give Hoffpauir a shot but his stats weren’t really any better than what the Cards already have.
I will say this about the pen, they sure have made life interesting this season. Another nail bitter tonight.
I don’t see playing Miles, Kennedy and Ryan in the OF lately.
They have no future as ML outfielders. Their arms are not that strong and they are lack the power typical of most OFers and not sure they have the speed/range to cover the OF. Play Barton regulary to see what he can do on an every day basis. Use it as a showcase to see if another team is interested. Everybody knows what the infielders can do. I think he has more potential than any of the previously mentioned. But then my crystal ball has been cloudy lately.

I read in the Post that Kennedy has asked for a trade because of his diminished playing time. Well if he had earned it by performing he might be playing more often.
Plus basically he can only play one position. Miles and Lopez are much more versatile and quite frankly, in my opinion, have performed better.
And they cost less.
Send him on his merry way.

With regard to next year, while the offense has been inconsistent overall their numbers are good this year whereas the bullpen has been pretty consistently TERRIBLE all year long. I recognize that maybe the starters haven’t been giving as many innings as we would like but I still think the top priority HAS to be the bull pen. I would let Villone go. He seems to walk about 1 hitter per appearance. His WHIP is nearly 1.7 and that’s exactly what you don’t want from a relief pitcher. Flores’s numbers are even worse (WHIP 2.1). I think McClellan pitched well early and seemed to weaken late but that’s more or less to be expected because he’s a rookie AND not conditioned to a 162 game season. Perez has also been good but also late in the season his performance has tapered off (witness tonight’s game) but I think he will get better. Those two guys I think show real promise. Also if Motte can develop a breaking ball and/or a change-up he could be really good. Those guys give me hope for next year.

A couple of posts have mentioned Furcal. He is great WHEN HE’S HEALTHY. But that’s a BIG condition. He has missed most of this year (only 32 games played) with an injury that seems to recur or he never seems to recover completely from. He missed some of last year (138 games played) also (although I think that was from a broken bone so not likely to be repeated). All I’m saying is that he might be another player we end up paying big $ to and then he only plays half the season. Seems like a big risk to me. I certainly would not be willing to give him a long term contract.

Finally, what does the future hold for the crippled starters, Mulder (I can’t see him coming back) and Carpenter? Has Carpenter been benched for the rest of this season? If so, how serious is the injury and can he recondition himself to play a whole season in 09. What do they do about Loshe and Wellemeir(sp?)? any thoughts?

Wellemeyer would be easier to bring back than Lohse would, because Lohse is a Scott Boras client, so he’ll be getting big money after his performance this year. And from what I understand, Carpenter is done on the season, nothing big and he should be 100% for next season. And jdun, I agree the bullpen would be the best thing to work on, we need a left handed reliever more than anything, so we should go after Fuentes, if he comes here, he could be a set up man, while Perez becomes the closer. And Miles is a free agent, and he may be having a good season, but not sure it’s big enough to bring him back. And I don’t think we’d have to offer Furcal big money, because of his injuries I don’t think teams would be willing to offer him big money. And if we were to give him a deal, it should be for like 2 or 3 years, not a long term contract like 5 + years.

Maybe Kennedy should have asked for a trade earlier. A grand slam and 5 RBIs so far – and that’s just through 2 innings!

One good game does not make up for a bad season, however, one good game, could earn him a start in the next days game. You don’t just get playing time, you have to earn it.

Where would the Cardinals be if they had not traded Edmonds and had him to play center field this year? I think we would be celebrating, not the Cubs!!! To see a collage created about Edmonds, please visit my web site

Having Edmonds would not have changed the results that much for the Cards. Better performance from the pen would have. Injuries did not help.
I am glad Jimbo will get to play in the off season. Sad that’s it’s not the Cards.

Um….what? So Jim Edmonds not being in the lineup is why we’re not in contention this year? Is that what you’re saying? He’s a part time player in a hitters friendly ballpark, Anks has put up far better number on the season than Edmonds has and he’s been injured. That statement just confuses the heck out of me.

I’m with you monti. I would LOVE to see where we’d be with Jimmy Edmonds in our lineup. MAYBE, it wouldn’t have made a huge difference. But it sure as HELL couldn’t have been worse! And the defense would have been more consistent, at least. I don’t care what any little 18 or 19 year old says, we would be better with Jimmy and Scottie, and without LaLoser and his favorite little numbers game!!

We seem to be lacking in the outfield right now, so it would help to have Edmonds. If Barton hadn’t misplaced that ball in left field yesterday, we might have won the game! I think Ankiel has been great, but he’s been injured for almost half the season. If we’d had more runs during the year, the bullpen would have been less stressed and probably done a lot better. Edmonds in the lineup would have helped produce more runs.

Wait, what? More HR’s? Jim has 16, that’s less than Anks (he’s been injured), and less than Ludwick. Edmonds has an average of around .230, all of our outfielders, except stavinoha has a higher batting average than that. And the error was made by Barton in LF, Edmonds plays CF. I’m not getting your argument here. Edmonds is in a hitters friendly ball park in Chicago, that’s why his stats are even half as good as what they are. And Rolen doesn’t even have double digit HR’s on the year, does he? And Glaus has 26, if I remember correctly, and Glaus has been playing gold glove defense. And you can complain about LaRussa all you want, he’s 3rd on the all time managerial wins list, and is only 1 of 2 people to win a world series in both leagues, the stats speak for themselves.

And you’re saying Ankiel has been injured for half the season, you think it would have been any different with Edmonds, didn’t Edmonds, his last 3 years in Saint Louis struggle with injuries?

You do realize that’s part of the reason why he was traded right? Because he wanted to be gauranteed everyday playing time, which he wouldn’t have been gauranteed in Saint Louis, because the bench players were getting more playing time than he was, because he was struggling with injuries.

Not only that, Edmonds and Rolen weren’t worth their contracts the way they were playing.

I just don’t get the doom-and-gloom here. Yes, it’s disappointing to be finally out of the race, but let’s be honest: in February and March, how many of us thought the team would be IN the race into mid-September? And in a division that, top to bottom (well, excluding the Reds…), has played much tougher this year than expected?

As for the Edmonds move, hindsight is 20/20. There was certainly nothing in Jed’s winter, or his first couple of months of this season, to suggest that letting him go was in any way a mistake. It would be worth the time to do some careful soul searching as to exactly what got him back on track once he got to Chicago; there might be a lesson in there applicable to other guys in their decline phase, which every team has. But it’s nothing to lose sleep over.

I agree that they’ve had a much better season than I think anyone anticipated and it’s been great watching them—UNTIL THE FIRST OF SEPTEMBER. Again I’m watching the games today and yesterday see Lopez blow a double play because of lack of mental focus (going to try to tag the runner instead of making the throw to second) that cost them 3 runs and probably the game. Today I watch Izturis trying to score on a base hit from second and NOT BOTHERING TO SLIDE. If he makes even a decent slide he’s probably safe and the game is tied. What I find most disturbing right now is they seem to have QUIT, if not consciously, then at least subconsciously. If you’re Albert or Yadi and maybe nursing an injury or trying to prevent aggravating an injury I can see it. But the kind of plays I alluded to above or yesterday Barton letting Soriano’s single with the bases loaded go to the wall makes me think they’ve shut down mentally. The defensive lapses must drive the pitchers crazy. I want them playing hard to improve their record for 162 games. I REALLY HOPE that they do the Dodgers the courtesy of playing hard to beat AZ next week. The west is still unresolved and I think respect for the game dictates that they wake up and play hard at least during that series.

I understand the gloom completely! It comes from seeing our team be a surprise in the early going, to doing nothing to improve themselves at the deadline, to ending up finishing exactly where everyone thought we would. I don’t see how anyone of you can say we have had a better season that expected. We haven’t!! We had a better half-season than anyone imagined. But, look, we are having exactly the same results as all the “experts” predicted. We’re only ahead of Cincinatti and Pittsburgh in the Central, and coming up on last in the Wild Card. It’s not exactly a rosey picture for Cards fans. The team and the players have to stretch to find bright spots outside of Ludwick and maybe Lohse. Hey I love Ricky Anks, but he’s injury prone. Always has been, and it would have been nice to have Jimmy Edmonds in there to pick up some slack. It was reported that jimmy asked for the trade, because he didn’t like the idea of not seeing a lot of playing time. Well that story has as many holes in it as swiss cheese. Jimmy’s not stupid. He knows he’s older and his body can’t handle playing every day. He knew wherever he went, he would be the veteren CF playing when healthy and productive, and possibly mentoring a youngster. I think the real reason he asked for the trade was the way the team was heading. I think he knew the organization wasn’t comitted to winning this year, and he didn’t like the way LaRussa handled the Rolen situation. Just like LaRussa mishandled Ozzie’s last years. That’s my conspiracy theory, anyways.

Oh yeah. And how could it not be seen as a mistake to let Jimmy go??? He’s going to be playing in October, while we’re at home fishing. And he contributed to our division rival’s excellent season, while beating us a couple times with his bat AND glove.

Right….so Jim Edmonds is the reason the Cubs are going to the playoffs this season. Him and his .230 average. Reed helped the Cubs out more than Edmonds has. All the OFers in both Saint Louis and Chicago have outperformed Edmonds on the season. Not seeing the argument here.

And just so you know, Rolen and TLR were both in the wrong. In case you haven’t realised, Rolen has argued everywhere he’s went. And it won’t be that long before he’s doing it in Toronto also. The whole thing between Tony and LaRussa started, because Tony was wanting to rest Rolen because he wasn’t exactly doing much for this team with his injured shoulder, and Rolen didn’t like that. Now I know I’m going to be hearing the statement how I’m just defending LaRussa because I’m a LaRussa lover, which is far from the truth. There are several things that LaRussa does that I dislike, but you see, I don’t whine about it like everyone else, because I realise that he’s the manager, I’m not, he’s 3rd on the all time managerial win list, I’m not, and he’s 1 of 2 players to win a world series in both the national league and the american league, and I’m not. So I pretty much trust that he knows what he’s doing, it just doesn’t always work out, and when it doesn’t work out, that’s when I’m upset. You may think I have no problem with the Cardinals not making the playoffs this year, but you’re far from the truth. It disgusts me to the point I cuss like a sailor, but I realize that sometimes it’s best to make no moves than to make a stupid move. You think it’s smart to offer 4 or 5 prospects to get someone like Fuentes, I think it’s crazy, because we’ll only have him for half a season. I think the smarter move would be to wait until the season is over and get him for 3 years, and not give up any prospects.

Not reading or responding to you

Question for Matt,
Worst case scenario. Carpentar’s career is over due to his nerve damage.
What do Cards owe him? Do Cards have a disability policy on him?

Willie Bloomquist (31)
Jamey Carroll (35)
Craig Counsell (38)
Ray Durham (37)
Damion Easley (39)
David Eckstein (34)
Mark Ellis (32)
Mark Grudzielanek (39)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (33)
Orlando Hudson (31)
Tadahito Iguchi (34)
Jeff Kent (41)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Mark Loretta (37)
Nick Punto (31)

Willie Bloomquist (31)
Orlando Cabrera (34)
Alex Cintron (30)
Alex Cora (33)
Craig Counsell (38)
David Eckstein (34)
Adam Everett (32)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Jerry Hairston Jr. (33)
Cesar Izturis (29)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Edgar Renteria (33)
Juan Uribe (30)
Ramon Vazquez (32)
Omar Vizquel (42)
………What do all of these guys have in common?

all middle infielders?

Half correct. All potential free-agent middle infielders!!

So, with a limited pool of middle infield talent in the minors, who is appealing? I don’t see any real must haves in the group. I have been impressed with Lopez’ play in StL. Looks like a lot of aged and oft-injured dudes. Punto might be intriguing. What about Miles for next year – is he locked up with the Birds?

I’d trade some of our outfield talent for a second baseman, sign Furcal as our starter at Short stop, and sign Lopez and Izturis as back up infielders. Izturis, because he’s a switch hitter with decent speed, who’s good defensively, and Lopez, because he’s shown that he’s a pretty decent hitter, and could be a good bat off the bench.

Yep. Very limited indeed. Some of these guys still have player or club options that may be picked up. So it is a fairly thin group of guys I’d like to see sign. As Scott said, Nick Punto is interesting. I find Orlando Hudson, somehow, intriguing. I like Ray Durham, too, even though he’s 37. Adam Everett would be an attractive pick up if he could hit better than Cesar. Furcal is a guy that I think would cost far more than he would be worth, unless he came here and had some career years. Which could happen, you never know. But I don’t see Mo pulling the trigger on a deal like that. We’ll see.

shaun….are you in NW Ark? (I drive to Siloam Springs twice a week for grad school)

oh, weird…it’s showning different id’s for us, now…K300 is

I am in NW Ark! I live in Springdale right now, work at channel 5 news. Siloam, huh? Do any gambling at the Indian Casinos??
That’s a good time. ….And mine has been signing me in as slforre77 sometimes. That is weird. I was wondering what was up with that.

SLForre and K300, were either of you in a fantasy baseball league? Because the only explanation that I have for showing me as pujols_05, when I am indeed, is that I was in a Fantasy League earlier this year. Finished second in the end, if I would have finished first I would have won 10,000 dollars. 😦

I never played in a fantasy baseball league (just football), but I wonder if it is doing it that way because so many complained about it showing our email addresses that they changed it.

Yeah, I go to John Brown Univ. for a graduate counseling degree. Actually, the new casino they built – Downstream Casino – by Joplin, MO is 5 minutes from my house🙂. I’m in good shape!

I am pretty sure it is your google talk or gmail account log in that it is putting up here… I guess that is better than your email account, but I am not sure I like that still… This is

It’s not google talk or gmail. I have neither, and it’s been showing me as slforre77, randomly. I’ve also not played fantasy baseball or football. It wastes too much time, and I don’t have enough extra time to keep up with them. I don’t know what the deal is with the names on here. Weird!
Downstream Casino, eh? I’ve only been to Cherokee Casino. Fun though.

The Post is reporting that Loshe has been scratched from Sundays start to have a physical exam. Speculation is that the exam is part of talks regarding a contract extension.
This is similar to what happened in spring with Wainwright.
Cards had the exam done and then later in day announced an extension. Post said they would have more later today.

They couldn’t wait one more day to get the physical done??? It’s the last game of the season!!! That just seems odd to me. Nothing terribly wrong with it, I guess. But definitely odd.

The Post reports that the Cards have announced a 4:30 press conference for Momday presumable to announce a
contract deal with Loshe. Sources say the deal will be similar to what Carlos Silva got this past winter. That deal was 4 years/$48 million. Loshe is 30 so hopefully he has a few good years left.
Now so much depends on Carps health, but Wainwright and Loshe make a pretty good 2-3 or 1-2 in the rotation.
Pinero is under team control and I think Wellmyer is also, tho I think he is eligible for arbitration. Looper is a free agent.
Frankly I like this move, if it indeed happens and am glad to see Mo get aggressive and make the deal so quick.

I like the deal IF it’s not a 4 year $48 million deal. He hasn’t proven to be worth that, to me. I’d give him two, MAYBE three years worth $2-$3 million a year. I’d cut Looper loose or send him back to the pen. I like Wellemeyer and his results enough to bring him back to the rotation. I’d only bring back Pineiro if we can’t land a good free agent. And as much as I’d like to see Carp back, I’m not counting on it at all. Here’s a list of some potential free agent pitchers….
Kris Benson (33)
A.J. Burnett (32) – can opt out after ’08 season
Paul Byrd (38)
Bartolo Colon (36)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Shawn Estes (36)
Josh Fogg (32)
Freddy Garcia (33)
Jon Garland (29)
Tom Glavine (43)
Mike Hampton (36)
Mark Hendrickson (35)
Livan Hernandez (34)
Orlando Hernandez (43)
Jason Jennings (30)
John Lackey (30) – $9MM club option for ’09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Jon Lieber (39)
Rodrigo Lopez (33) – club option for ’09
Derek Lowe (36)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Jamie Moyer (46)
Mike Mussina (40)
Carl Pavano (33) – $13MM club option for ’09 with a $1.95MM buyout
Brad Penny (31) – $8.75MM club option for ’09 with a $2MM buyout
Odalis Perez (32)
Oliver Perez (27)
Andy Pettitte (37)
Mark Prior (27)
Kenny Rogers (44)
Glendon Rusch (34)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Curt Schilling (42)
Ben Sheets (30)
John Smoltz (42)
Randy Wolf (32)…And that’s just starting pitchers!

I like the deal because by being agressive and doing it now, Mo sets the market without letting Loshe test free agency. Frankly $2-$3 million doesn’t buy much of a starting pitcher these days. Loshe got about $4.5 million this year and earned every penny of it.
Pinero is under team control having signed a two year contract last winter.
There are only 7 pitchers on your list 30 years or younger
and one of them is Ben Sheets. He is good but has a history of injuries. Another is Mark Prior, ditto on the injuries.
That being said, I think professional athletes are all over paid.

I agree about the overpaid part, for sure. Something needs to be done to make baseball salaries $2-$3 mil doesn’t buy much of a pitcher these days. But, to me, Lohse wasn’t THAT good. I don’t think he deserved $4.5 million this year, and I wouldn’t say he earned every penny. But that’s my opinion. He was pretty good, but inconsistant. And the number of wins is misleading, because he had pretty good run support and fewer of his leads blown by the pen. He got lucky. He threw right at 200 innings and gave up 211 hits, 88 runs (84 earned), and 18 long balls. Again, not terrible, but not outstanding either. By comparison, an outstanding pitcher (AW) had only 4 fewer wins with 13 fewer starts. Then I compare it to Todd Wellemeyer, who threw 192+ innings, gave up only 178 hits, 84 runs (79 earned), BUT he gave up 7 more HRs (25). I only bring up these stats, because they are used to defend exhorbitant salaries these days. Do you think Wellemeyer AND Lohse should be getting paid the same?? I do. Now, do you think it should be in the neighborhood of 10.2 million a year? I don’t.

Like I said, all professional athletes are overpaid, even Albert Pujols. That’s my opinion.
Regarding Loshe it will be interesting what happens in the free agent market this off-season.
I also factor in two other things.
Cards actually got Loshe for 5 years at about $46million, if you count this season.
There was a stretch after the break where Loshe pitched 5 games and did not give up more than earned 3 runs in any of them and did not get the win, due to either lack of run support or poor bullpen performance. He could very easily have won 19-20 games.
I am basically looking at the market and the Cards budget and saying I think this was a pretty good move. Time will tell.
I guess this means Looper isn’t coming back?

I’m very happy to see that between Looper and Lohse the Cards picked Lohse. Once he teamed up with Duncan he had a great season, and with a little help from the bullpen he could of been pushing for 20 wins. After a 15 win season with an agent like Boras he could of gotten 12-15 mil. on the free agent market for sure so getting him for roughly 10 mil a year is a steal these days. Are all of these athletes overpaid?? Sure they are but this is how it goes and if you want quality you have to pay for it. What kind of contract do you think Pujols is going to get when he either extends or goes free agent one day? You thought Alex Rodriguez is ridiculous! While I like this move I don’t like how Mo is saying that “if” he looks for another pitcher it will prolly be a back of the rotation type guy. Because again that means that he is banking on a guy recovering from Injury “Carp” to be ready to go next season. There isn’t another guy more then me that hopes that happens…but I really hope MO doesn’t be that Nieve again after seeing how well the Carp-Mulder-Clement project blew up in his face this year. A Rotation of Carp-Wainright-Lohse, Wellemeyer-Piniero/Boggs/Whoever excites me…Take Carp out of that equation and again we have a tough year. Please MO don’t make that mistake of not having the depth to cover your butt. It never hurts to have more HEALTHY pitchers then you need.

Tend to agree. Best to have extra healthy pitchers. Let’s not forget about Thompson as a swing man spot starter.
It will be see how the free agent market develops this winter. Regarding a previous post that Loshe and Wellmeyer should be paid the same. I would disagree because Loshe has had more decent years as a starter. This was Wellmeyers first decent year as a starter.
Would you pay a rookie firstbaseman who matched Alberts
stats the same as you would pay Albert?
Can’t base it on one sesson’s worth of numbers.

Well, I guess it’s a matter of opinion. No I wouldn’t pay a rookie the same as Albert if they had the same numbers for one year. BUT, that’s not a fair comparison. Wellemeyer is anything but a rookie, and Lohse is no superstar pitcher. So it’s just not a fair comparison. And as far as basing it on one season’s worth of numbers…I agree, but that’s EXACTLY what MLB does. Jeff Weaver got a big contract based on a HALF-SEASON’S worth of success. Luddy will probably get a big deal based SOLELY on this year’s numbers. It happens every single year, so I have to say I discredit that argument.

In addition to Ludwick, I would think Ankiel and Wellmeyer will also get hefty raises. Looper probably will too, but probably not with the Cards.
But that’s the way the system works, tho I don’t agree with it. One good season doesn’t make for a stellar career.

Agreed. Do you think we’ll retain Luddy? Isn’t he up for free agency or arbitration? And do you think he’ll be able to duplicate this season again? I’m not so sure.

I think Cards will retain Ludwick. I doubt that based on one really good season he has a ton of trade value, tho he had a good year, both offensively & defensively. I am doubtful he’ll duplicate those numbers again. I think he is eligible for arbitration. I like him more than Ankiel because he seems to be more durable so far.
Right now I think Skip offers the best trade value, based on his numbers, defense and the fact that Rasmus is being groomed for CF.
Duncan and Ankiel are damaged goods and their trade value is diminished somewhat because of it.
Duncan might be better suited somewhere else as a DH
or a first baseman due to his below par defensive skills.

Ludwick is eligible for arbitration after next season. Depending on how he’s doing by the trade deadline next season should determine whether he should be traded or not. If he’s putting up good numbers, I say trade him, get as much as you can for him while his value is high. If he’s having a bad season, I say move him to the bench or send him to the minors.

Nevermind, I thought it was next year that he was arbitration eligible. Looks like it was this year.

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